South African Oral History 2, Part I: 1 hr. 34 min.
South African Oral History 2, Part II: 1 hr. 8 min.
South African Oral History 2, Part III: 1 hr. 9 min.
Biography
David and Lynne both come from medical families: All four of their parents were doctors and all four attended University of Cape Town Medical School at the same time. As for David and Lynne, they began dating while Lynne was in medical school and David was completing his residency program.
South Africa’s political situation was one of the main reasons David and Lynne began thinking about leaving as neither of them wanted to raise children under the apartheid regime. Their first son was born in 1965 and by 1967 they had left. The family spent a year in Glasgow before moving to Boston, where David worked at Harvard Medical School. It was during this time that they had their second child.
Because of the fact David was eligible to be conscripted if he immigrated to the United States, the couple took out student visas, which expired after three years. If the Vietnam War had not been taking place, it is conceivable that the family would have remained in the United States, David and Lynne having already adjusted to American culture and made friends in the area.
With their visas set to expire, the couple considered immigrating to a number of countries, but settled on Canada. After their arrival, their third child was born. Once David and Lynne were settled in Canada they were joined by several other family members.
David and Lynne are now retired and enjoying the best years of their life. Their son and two daughters live in Toronto and they have ten grandchildren ranging in age from twenty-four to ten years as of November 2018.
Material Format
sound recording
Language
English
Name Access
Ginsburg, David
Ginsburg, Lynne
Geographic Access
Boston (Mass.)
Cape Town (South Africa)
Durban (South Africa)
Glasgow (Scotland)
Kingston (Ont.)
London (England)
Pretoria (South Africa)
Original Format
Digital file
Copy Format
Digital file
Transcript
Part I:
00:27 Lynne discusses how she and David met, courted, and married.
00:46 David and Lynne and their respective parents graduated from medicine at the University of Cape Town in South Africa.
01:45 Lynne and David's son Neil was born in Cape Town in 1965.
01:50 Lynne explains their reasons for leaving South Africa in February 1967.
02:25 Lynne and David spent one year in Glasgow and three years in Boston.
02:58 Lynne and David have a second child.
03:22 Lynne explains why they were forced to leave the United States.
05:07 Lynne explains how she and David moved to Canada, specifically Kingston.
08:48 Lynne and David discuss the warm community of Kingston.
09:00 David and Lynne describe the positive and negative features of living in Boston.
11:14 Lynne was born in Pretoria, moved to Durban, and then moved to Cape Town.
12:25 David and Lynne reminisce about Cape Town.
13:10 David's brother and sister and Lynne's sister emigrated. Lynne's brother left for a short time but returned to South Africa.
13:40 David and Lynne muse about some of the changes that have occurred in South Africa.
15:42 David's father's family was from Lithuania; his mother's family was from Latvia. Lynne's father's family was from Lithuania; her mother's family was from Latvia. Lynne cites a trip made by her sister to Lithuania.
16:47 Lynne and David discuss safety concerns and high level of crime in South Africa and how it affected them personally.
19:24 Lynne addresses the inefficiency of modern-day South Africa.
21:30 Lynne discusses some of her family's history, including her grandparents and parents. Her maternal grandfather came from Lithuania and married her South-African-born grandmother. They lived briefly in the United States, where her mother was born. Her maternal grandparents came from Lithuania but were married in Cape Town. Her father was born in Cape Town. She discusses the challenges faced by her father as well as his accomplishments in the field of medicine.
25:55 Lynne describes her family's experiences during the Second World War: her father's role as a surgeon enlisted with the British army and her pregnant mother evacuated out of London to South Africa.
28:24 Lynne addresses the role of living near a Jewish community impacted her family.
31:12 David discusses some of his family's history. He shares a colourful story of how his maternal grandparents fled from Russia (Lituhania). They settled in a small town, Sterksstroom, South Africa. David shares a few stories about his father and family.
34:15 David and Lynne reminisce about the apartheid situation in South Africa during their childhood. David discusses the link between the nationalists and Israel He notes that the current South African government is anti-Israel and anti-Jewish.
36:47 David and Lynne cite incidents of antisemitism during their childhood.
38:17 David discusses the risk of making political comments during his university years.
39:14 Lynne discusses some of the restrictions imposed by the apartheid regime.
42:43 Lynne comments that her family had minimal contact with Israel and Zionist movements.
46:50 Lynne's parents spoke Yiddish with one another. David's mother spoke Yiddish, not his father. Lynne and David speak Afrikaans.
52:33 Lynne discusses her family's practice of Judaism.
55:05 David discusses his family's practice of Judaism.
56:52 Lynne and David continue to discuss Jewish practices and the customs of their grandparents.
59:46 Lynne and David describe some of the struggles faced by their grandparents' generation and the sacrifices they made for their children. They relate some stories about David's grandfather.
1:04:44 Lynne and David recall some Jewish memories while living in Glasgow and Boston.
1:10:47 Lynne discusses her experience of becoming a bat mitzvah at age fifty-three.
1:15:26 Lynne describes their involvement with the Jewish community in Kingston.
1:18:52 Lynne and David describe some of the recent changes in practice in the Kingston synagogue.
1:20:59 Lynne and David describe their children's Jewish education and practice.
1:22:42 Lynne and David share some of their views about Judaism and practice.
1:28:48 Lynne and David relate a story involving a kiddush cup brought from Europe by David's grandfather.
1:30:16 Lynne's maiden name was Heselson.
1:30:32 Lynne presents and discusses her father's military service and medals.
1:32:20 David and Lynne list their and their parents' medical specialties.
Part II
00:00 David describes his family's religious practice, including his paternal grandfather and father. David describes his own observance.
07:50 Lynne discusses her family's practice of Judaism. She recalls celebrating Jewish holidays with neighbours, the Gelfands. David and Lynne reminisce about Jewish foods.
Aubrey and Lucille both grew up Jewish in South Africa, but in many respects their experiences of Yiddishkeit were quite different. The son of Orthodox Eastern European parents, Aubrey grew up in a kosher household that took religion very seriously, even if his parents, who owned a small business, had to work Friday evenings in order to make ends meet. Lucille, on the other hand, was the daughter of German immigrants to South Africa who belonged to a Reform synagogue; as a result, she was less familiar with the nuances of kashrut. After meeting Lucille, Aubrey’s mother made several phone calls to verify that her future daughter-in-law was, in fact, Jewish.
Lucille tells a story related to her lack of familiarity with kashrut that illustrates several aspects of Jewish life under apartheid South Africa. When Aubrey was fourteen years old, his family employed a servant of the same age who went on to work for the family for decades. Years later, when Lucille was staying with Aubrey’s family, the servant, despite being non-Jewish, would inquire whether Lucille would be giving her child meat or milk that night and would then proceed to put out the food along with the appropriate plates. Immediately after doing so, he would tell Lucille not to touch anything until he returned in the morning lest she inadvertently violate kashrut!
Aubrey and Lucille left South Africa in 1965, ending up in Kingston after a two-year stay in Birmingham, Alabama. Aubrey became one of the first Jewish academics to teach at Queen’s University while Lucille found interesting jobs in social work, ending her career at Kingston General Hospital. Initially, they had some difficulty integrating into the local Jewish community, but the situation improved as they slowly became more integrated into the Jewish community and more Jewish academics settled in Kingston. Aubrey and Lucille have four children and are the proud grandparents of ten grandchildren. Aubrey passed away in February, 2018.
Material Format
sound recording
Language
English
Name Access
Groll, Aubrey
Groll, Lucille
Geographic Access
Kingston (Ont.)
South Africa
Original Format
Digital file
Copy Format
Digital file
Transcript
Part 1:
01:07 Lucille Groll (née Godfrey) shares some of her family history. Her parents were born in Germany. Her father (né Gothelf) came to South Africa in the late 1920s as an adult. Her mother came to Johannesburg as an infant and was educated in a convent.
02:36 Lucille describes her Jewish upbringing as Reform and liberal with minimal Zionism.
03:10 Lucille's brother attended a Reform summer camp with Zionist leanings.
03:34 Lucille discusses her Jewish education, practice of Jewish holidays, and her Jewish social life.
06:50 Lucille's parents and other elders spoke German at home.
07:14 Lucille recalls the German-style food eaten at her home.
09:34 Lucille's maternal grandfather came to South Africa in 1910, returned to Germany, and then returned to South Africa after the First World War.
10:41 Aubrey shares some of his family history. His parents were married in Lithuania and migrated to Furrow, a farming community. His parents ran a general store. He had two brothers.
13:38 Aubrey discusses his upbringing in Somerset West such as going to school and Jewish practices (Shabbat, kashrut, holidays, Zionism).
15:44 Aubrey discusses her father's affiliation with the Revisionist Zionism. He relates an anecdote involving a visit by Menachem Begin to their town.
16:35 Aubrey discusses her parents' involvement with the synagogue.
17:28 Aubrey reminisces about his education, bar mitzvah, foods, the Jewish community, synagogue life, Hebrew school, and keeping kashrut.
22:00 Aubrey notes that his parents did not discuss the Holocaust or their family's history, despite losing all of the family that remained behind in Lithuania.
23:20 Aubrey's parents spoke Yiddish with one another and friends but not with their children.
25:35 Lucille recalls first meeting Aubrey and his family.
26:45 Aubrey discusses antisemitism during his school years.
27:48 Lucille relates a humorous about Aubrey's mother confirming Lucille's Jewish background.
28:38 Lucille and Aubrey discuss how they met.
Aubrey explains how they ultimately moved to Kingston, Ontario in 1967 via Birmingham, Alabama.
Part 2:
01:36 Lucille discusses her work as a social worker in psychiatry.
02:10 Aubrey and Lucille discuss their relationships with Lynne and David Ginsburg and their role in helping David find work in Kingston.
03:24 Lucille explains how she assumed there would be a Jewish community in Kingston. She shares her impressions of the Jewish community when they arrived. Aubrey shares his impressions as well.
06:20 Aubrey and Lucille were the first Jewish South Africans in Kingston. Other South Africans came to Kingston in 1969 and the 1970s. Aubrey discusses the involvement of South African Jews in the Kingston Jewish community.
08:23 Lucille discusses her family's involvement in the Jewish community in Kingston.
09:22 Lucille discusses her children and grandchildren and their practice.
14:10 ?Joyce (Aubrey's relative?) relates an anecdote about finding and repairing some old candlesticks.
15:45 Lucille discusses changes in Jewish practice over time in Canada versus South Africa.
16:50 Aubrey shares comments about the strong sense of Zionism and Jewish identity in South Africa during his youth.
19:35 Lucille notes that most South African Jews in Toronto have been affiliated with an Orthodox synagogue on Bayview Avenue and the Reform Temple Emanu-El.
Part 3:
00:00 Aubrey briefly discusses the prominence of Zionist movements and camps in South Africa.
Ivan’s parents arrived in South Africa from Lithuania around 1930. Prior to immigrating, they knew each other from Klykoliai, a shtetl in northwestern Lithuania. Ivan’s father was the first to arrive, taking up work at a concession store in the mining town of Brakpan. As for Ivan’s mother, she came over with her mother after her siblings had prepared a home for them in Brakpan. After being sent to a convent in Rhodesia in order to learn English, she returned to Brakpan where she married Ivan’s father. Together, the couple raised two children, who grew up with their maternal grandmother, who only spoke Yiddish. Consequently, Ivan grew up speaking Yiddish as well as English. He even gave his bar mitzvah speech in Yiddish, causing his Lithuanian grandmother to beam with pride.
Although they were not well off, Ivan’s parents managed to send their two sons to university. As an undergraduate, Ivan studied pharmacy at Rhodes University in Grahamstown. He met his wife while visiting his parents in Kimberley, where they had moved and were managing a hotel. The two were introduced on a blind date and corresponded for well over a year when Ivan went to do a post-graduate degree in industrial pharmacy at the University of Michigan. When Ivan returned to South Africa to take up a job in Cape Town, the two dated, became engaged, and married. In 1990, they immigrated to Canada with their two children as part of a job transfer. After a short stay in Brockville, the family relocated to Kingston, where they were active in Jewish life. Ivan’s wife, Daphne, passed away in 2006. He moved from Kingston to Toronto in 2018, joining his children Marc and Shelley and families who live there.